Scumbag pirates at large on e-bay

[lightwell]

We have all seen, the copies of Gnomon disks advertised on e-bay as "back-up" copies and "not in original packaging" and it has always pi**ed me off but now they are starting to do it with Dylans disks and maybe it is time that we all acted en-masse and drove these people out. Any suggestions?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gnomon-Maya-Zbrus ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gnomon-Maya-Zbrush-Adobe-Shake-DVD-Tutorials_W0QQitemZ6426619169QQcategoryZ41525QQssP ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Dylan has been incredibly helpful and approachable on this site and I hate to see him getting ripped off like this. I think we owe it to Dylan to do something.

Does anybody know if Gnomon actually monitor this kind of thing?

Jim

[Cathy]

I strongly agree. We should do something.

I was approached by someone on another forum, who sent me a personal message (obviously too ashamed to post in public) offering to buy my copies of Dylan's DVDs. I let him know I was NOT INTERESTED.

I think, as artists, we should ban together to stop this kind of thing. Today it's affecting Dylan, tomorrow it could be you or I. If we sit back in silence watching our peers getting ripped-off we are in effect enabling it to happen.

I'm going to see if I can find an e-mail link to E-Bays managment and send them a letter about this. If I find an address, I'll come back here and post it.

-Cathy

[Cathy]

Who to complain to – let your voice be heard:

E-mail: admin@thegnomonworkshop.com.

Address:
The Gnomon Workshop
1015 N. Cahuenga Blvd.
Hollywood, CA 90038
Fax:
323-978-0671
Phone:
800-909-7574

_________________________________

E-Bay – To Report a Security Problem:
http://pages.ebay.com/securitycenter/?s ... ome:f:f:US (http://pages.ebay.com/securitycenter/?ssPageName=home:f:f:US)

E-Bay - Protecting Intellectual Property:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/p ... ro-ov.html (http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/programs-vero-ov.html)

E-Bay - Prohibited, questionable, and infringing guidelines:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/item_allowed.html

[dylan]

Thanks, Cathy. I really appreciate it. I just stumbled across this thread. I am grateful to all of you looking out for me and other artists. I did a search on ebay in both the us and uk and haven't seen any pirated dvds.

I would be curious to know what gnomon's and ebay's response was to anyone who complained. Thanks again.

Dylan

[lightwell]

Hi Dylan,

The usual offenders last sales probably concluded just before you got to look, there aren't any there at the moment. Sometimes the guilty parties disappear from e-bay (no longer registered with ebay) but then obviously pop back up again albeit with revised text and different names. There was a character called "watneymarket" a month or so ago selling "back-up" versions of loads of the Gnomon library who then disappeared and then a couple of weeks ago a "watneymarket_2" popped up selling Gnomon DVD's in "not-original" packaging. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the connection but I get the impression that ebay are re-active rather than pro-active in dealing with this kind of stuff. After all, its not hard to spot scams like following is it?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GNOMON-DVDS-AND-D ... dZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/GNOMON-DVDS-AND-DIGITAL-TUTOR-CDS_W0QQitemZ6431967976QQcategoryZ2300QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Jim

[LFGabel]

This kind of thing is really hard to police, and it pisses me off as well. For those people who illegally buy or sell pirated software or DVDs, karma has a way of coming back and evening the score. I guess the only real solution is constant vigilance, and checking ebay regularly.

For me, I can't wait to watch Dylan's DVDs, which I bought *legally* from Gnomon a few days ago! :D

[stevenbray1]

If you're watching the pennies then buy your discs legally, learn everything you can from them and then resell the originals.

Gnomon (or whoever) get the money they've earned.

You get legit, high quality discs.

Someone else gets to save a bit of money and they don't get ripped off either.

That's what I do.

[Witchking]

I sent an email to gnomon about this when lightwell posted this here...over 3 weeks ago...but didnt get any reply from them. I just assume they handled the matter, as that auction was finally taken down on the last day.

[Cathy]

I've received no replies to my emails either. Perhaps it's because this person is no longer posting on e-bay. Either way - I think it was a good exercise to let them know we are aware of this sort of thing and that we collectively and individually will not tolerate it.

Hope this note finds you all well and Dylan, you are very welcome. You've given a lot to this community and I thinks it's only right that we "have your back" in cases like this.

-Cathy

[lightwell]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 5621056255 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3133&item=5621056255)

The sale has finished now but this guy sold "Not Original" versions of Dylans DVD's for £15. Dylan, if you spot this maybe you should have a word with e-bay. I feel ashamed that this only seems to be happening here in the UK and don't like to see people getting ripped of by no-good parasites.

Maybe if we all bombed ebay with complaints they might take notice?

Jim

[Eisner]

The DVD's are too expensive for me I wish they were really £15 .
Oh well I had better save up!

I hope nobody is thoughtless enough to buy from this seller.
Gnomon should sue..

:D

[LFGabel]

I can't say I'd argue with getting my hands on them for that price(£15). I certainly can't afford to spend the ammount they really cost.
Over priced? How much would you pay for almost 3+ hours of lecture from a professional artist? I think they're very reasonably priced (at least the ones by Dylan Cole that I have recently bought - great btw!). $60 for 3+ hours of lecture... that's less than $20/hour.

Good, quality education is worth it's weight in gold. People buy these training materials to better themselves to earn a living. It's an investment in their future. You don't want to (or can't) invest in your future, yet you want to reap the rewards from learning the techniques. So you end up cheating the professional artist that is helping you. In the end, why would these professional artists want to make more of these DVDs?

It's insulting that you openly condone piracy, on a professional forum such as this.

[lightwell]

... if the dvd's weren't so over priced this wouldn't happen. I can't say I'd argue with getting my hands on them for that price(£15). I certainly can't afford to spend the ammount they really cost.


:?

..but how many geniune mp3's do you own?

Actually all of them, got them all legitimately and paid for every track...after all 79p/99c isn't a lot. Its even less than a 7" single would have cost 25 years ago!

[Daniel]

People are becoming too complacent in the digital age. Before computers Matte Painters/Glass Artists were kept secret by the film companies. Public didn't even know what a matte artist was let alone how they did it. And now they are sharing their secrets you say it costs too much?

Dylan, Yanick & Christian as well as the other artists at Gnomon are teaching their art for only a fraction of the cost for a full matte and Dylan went to the trouble to find out from the forum what we all wanted to see.

The DVD's are only as valuable as you make them, If I only learned one thing from Dylan's DVD's it would have been worth the money, I actually learned a great deal, and I am forever grateful to Dylan.

You cannot put a price on good education and we are all extremely lucky to have artists such as Rick, Dylan and the many others here share their critiques and comments on this forum.

Oh, and something I was taught when I was young... save for it

[Eisner]

:D

[cameo]

Its clearly an attitude thing but also predominantly an age thing I would say..people that have grown up in this age feel they deserve the right to a free lunch. The fact that non of the music, software, training DVD's would be available without people actually paying for the products seems lost on them.

One guess who would be most vocal about a piece of software being discontinued or a training provider closing down as well..

"..omfg i dun believe it that sux :("

You said it free lunch boy! The penny dropped yet?

[lightwell]

The fact that non of the music, software, training DVD's would be available without people actually paying for the products seems lost on them.

Yeah, you have to admit that at least those selling on copies that they have bought legitimately have contributed towards Gnomons development in some way and there is a good chance of them going back to Gnomon for new DVD's in the future. Selling pirate versions is just a complete deadend.

Eisner, you described the Gnomon stuff as "overpriced" which suggested to me a complaint about value rather than them just costing a lot.

Lighten up...never, this is important.

[Eisner]

:D

[Shrinker]

If I may interject, I think this discussion is getting a little heated over a misunderstanding. Eisner, I think you've simply misused the word 'overpriced'.

From Dictionary.com....

Overpriced
adj : too costly for the value; "overpriced items at resort shops"

If I may say so, using that word comes across as quite derogatory to the contents, and so some folks are getting a little angry (I did too at first). That's probably not your meaning, so hopefully I don't sound like I'm jumping on you too. Expensive, may be a better word, but that's a pretty relative term. To a small effects facility turning over $100K-$1M a year, they're an absolute steal, to a hobbyist they're pretty inaccessible. I've no idea where you fit in that range, but the market value of the tips and skills presented on the DVDs is easily higher than their list price.

[LFGabel]

I am a professional not a student, and I do lecture from time to time... and yes if they were priced that cheaply I would buy them (from Gnomon)...
This sounds like backpeddaling to me. It was pretty clear in Lightwell's post right before yours that the pirated DVDs in question were being sold for £15 on eBay. When one reads your response to that, it sure sounds like you'd buy these pirated DVDs on eBay too. Or maybe it's just me.

So, you'd have no problem with people videotaping your lectures and selling them cheap on eBay?
and it's not easy convincing the wife either.
I thought you were a professional? Surely purchasing materials for professional development would be a no-brainer... or again, maybe it's just me.

[Dave L]

There is no doubt in my mind that this kind of thing will continue to happen. Human nature being what it is, there will always be someone wiling to exploit others. There will always be those who are willing to do the right thing. The bright light in all of this is that there are more of us than there are of them.

That being said the greater tragedy is the lack of ethics or at least oversight of corporate entities such as ebay, for they although being made up of individuals, should have a collective conscience and business model that encourages responsible behavior.

The bottom line is, its not price, nor is it the digital age; its human nature. You can't change individuals very easily, changing corporations often requires somehow negatively affecting their bottom line. Unfortunately, the structure of ebay is such that they don't have to care.

Should we ignore this and hope it goes away? certainly not. Should we encourage price reduction and hope it goes away? The world economy would collapse. Should we continue to rant about it, maybe; but fighting amongst ourselves? So, what do we do? I don't know, however, shining a light on any problem is always and only a good first step.

[Eisner]

:D

[LFGabel]

I think the point people were angered by, including myself, was that you thought about buying these pirated DVDs, and made those thoughts public on a forum of professionals that have saved, worked hard for, and sometimes gone into debt to buy their training materials and software.

I'm sure everyone has thought about buying pirated software/training matierials at one time or another, but publically stating so really strikes a nerve with a lot of people. I'm not talking about out of sight, out of mind either. Something needs to be done. Somewhere, honesty and integrity is breaking down. Maybe Gnomon should track piracy sales on eBay and sue them...

For me, supporting piracy is bad karma that will eventually catch up with you. I hope it catches up with eBay for providing a venue for piracy...

[Dave L]

I have no doubt that the price for sowing bad karma will be paid. Yet, it could take several lifetimes and may not be immediately recognisable.

E-mail even from every member of this site compared to the millions using ebay is a little like a gnat biting an elephants behind. It does'nt hurt the elephant and if he ignores it it will eventually go away. Nevertheless, it is always worth it to stand for what's right.

The question remains; what do we do about it?

[LFGabel]

Alert the media. Get the word out that eBay allows piracy. Bad press is a good motivator.

[Shootncut]

Well I'm in the video biz and i can can tell ya it costs a pretty penny to make training material. eg the last training vid I produced was 16 min and cost the comapny 4G to have it produced, plus packageing and duplication and that is on the cheap. So do the math to make any money they need to sell quite a few to turn a profit. So with a subject like matte painting (as Daniel said eairler in the thread) it is a small group so sales would be very limited to cover the production costs. So really how much could be made? My guess is not much. So to all the pirates out there. YOU SUCK

nail em if you can

[alfsea]

This is depressing. I can't tell you how many times I have reported pirated high end software, as well as training CDs, being sold on ebay.

And, you know, the only software company to respond, ask questions, or appear to act in any way has been Pixologic. And they have even bothered to thank me.

I have suggested to all of them that they get together and SUE Ebay en masse. But whats happened??

Anyway, how come they don't have a regular bot out there just scanning ebay for their software? So why should anyone else bother?

It all makes a mockery of all those who do the decent thing.

[kmblackbear06]

I agree that education is far from cheap. I have paid for my education on my own with no help from anybody else except good old student loans... I have also had the pleasure of buying a couple Gnomon DVD's (someday maybe I will be a famous matte artist and own the whole library) and can say that they may seem expensive to a poor college kid trying to learn everything he can, but the $60ish bucks per 3 hour is cheap compaired to what my friggin classes in school cost... 800+ a class yet we one meet up 4 days during the whole semester.... Also, use your student ID information for a few bucks off the Gnomon DVD's for a student discount... I think it turned out to be the cost of shipping for me.

PIRATES ARE NOT COOL!!! Well... except for Steve the Pirate on the movie "Dodgeball" :D :lol:

just my $.02