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AA
01-12-2006, 03:15 PM
DIGITAL CG LANDSCAPES - THE FUTURE OF MATTE PAINTING IN 3D

I have been watching TG Software (a procedural terrain-generating program) over the years, and finally bought my own copy this week, and I have been experimenting for a while with 3D matte paintings (entirely created in 3D) and I am going to start using it for film, and other related fields.

This software has great potential for future 3D Matte Paintings/Photo Real CG Environments, where 3D artists will have the freedom to fly trough these environments easily, instead of complicated projection set ups.
WATCH THIS EXAMPLE MOVIE which is just the raw 3D render with no tweaks and/or adjustments.

http://www.kk3d.de/terragen/tg2/index.htm


This software is already being used in Movies such as Columbia Pictures' Stealth with a combination of other software for various render passes.

3D artists can create these scenes, and render stills, that can be quickly painted on top of these renders, creating backdrops that can easily be used on lock off's or even with a simple projection on to flat geometry for some parallax. By creating various passes generated with other 3D packages, the final result after the compositing stage with several render passes will have impressive and highly promising results.

The new version of TG2 features a realtime 3D preview , a Populator system allows you to easily place millions of instances of plant models in a scene. Also the preview will feature an advanced hybrid micropolygon renderer with powerful multi-angle displacement capabilities.

TG2 also will have multiple cloud layers which are volumetric 3D clouds, and you will b able to use third party vegetation models, and render extremely detailed photo real landscapes.

In the very near future, we will be able to create photo real environments in 3D within a very short amount of time, using Next Gen 3D software packages like these, combined with other 3rd party plug-ins, and especially multiple processing computer systems that will hit the market very soon.

Again, this is only an example of where things are today, and very soon the possibilites in 3D will become endless :D


Below is the link to the article how TG was used for the movie Stealth
http://millimeter.com/mag/video_stealth/

http://millimeter.com/mag/507MIl_step.gif
Animated gif image from millimeter.com


BELOW ARE SOME OF MY OWN EXPERIMENTS

http://www.alpaltiner.com/forum/alp_terr02.jpg


ANOTER EXAMPLE BELOW OF A VERY EARLY WIP SCENE ENTIRELY CREATED USING 3D A COMBINATION OF TG AND MAYA

http://www.alpaltiner.com/forum/alp_3D_mattepainting.jpg

http://www.alpaltiner.com/forum/alp_sketch_28c.jpg


http://www.alpaltiner.com/forum/alp_sketch_28a.jpg


http://www.alpaltiner.com/forum/alp_sketch_28b.jpg


http://www.alpaltiner.com/forum/alp_sketch_28d.jpg



http://www.alpaltiner.com/forum/alp_sketch_28e.jpg

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ALL THE RENDERS BELOW BY VARIOUS ARTISTS ARE USING THE BETA VERSION OF TG 2 THAT IS NOT EVEN OUT YET





ALSO MAKE SURE TO CHECK OUT TG2 THE NEW VERSION AND BELOW ARE SOME EXAMPLES OF WHAT WILL BE AVAILABLE AT THE END OF THIS YEAR WITH VOLUMETRIC CLOUDS, IMAGE DONE BY Olivier Cousinou


http://olivier.cousinou.free.fr/TGD/Images/Big_sky.jpg

http://olivier.cousinou.free.fr/TGD/Images/Desert_flowers.jpg

Olivier Cousinou' s website
http://olivier.cousinou.free.fr/tgdgal1.html

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Luois Bianco's Website and below some of his work
http://lucbianco.free.fr/3D/TGD202.jpg
http://lucbianco.free.fr/tgd_index.html

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MARKUS GANN's Gallery Below and his website

http://www.begann.de/pic/tgd/tgd1.html


http://www.begann.de/pic/tgd/2suns1024.jpg

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I ALSO CREATED A SECTION FOR THIS IN MY FORUM http://www.laborganika.com/forum/index.php, ANYONE INTERESTED FEEL FREE TO JOIN DISCUSSIONS< SHARE/POST YOUR WORK.


THE FUTURE OF MATTE PAINTINGS IS VERY EXCITING, CREATING VIRTUAL WORLDS/ ENDLESS DIGITAL LANDSCAPES IN 3D. AGAIN REMEMBER THAT THESE ARE RAW CG RENDERS WITHOUT ANY COMPOSITING/ADJUSTMENTS. THINK ABOUT ALL THE POSSIBILITES. ESPECIALLY BEING ABLE TO CREATE REFLECTION MAPS, PANO'S, AND THE LIST GOES ON . . :wink: . . . . . . .




ALSO GO WATCH THIS MOVIE ON THE LINK BELOW

[url]http://www.kk3d.de/terragen/tg2/index.htm[/ur

homer
01-12-2006, 03:36 PM
I assume it will need a heavy duty, rendering farm to create practical animations.
Seems it worth the try.

And great job on the sunset scene

smooth
01-12-2006, 05:11 PM
The future of matte painting in 3d??? I hope not.
I would rather create complex camera projections using real textures from real life photos and brush-work than to use procedurally textured models like terragens. There's a loooong way to go before computers can generate that soft organic feel that looks right. If it DOES come to that, then we can call it just "3d" the words matte painting would be gone. Sad day if it comes to that. And the 3d artists will do all the "matte paintings", if u can call them that at that point.
I have no negative views about 3d, don't get me wrong. Using it to help build a shot but not at the extent of using JUST 3d applications. Esp terragen.
my 2 cents.

+smooth+

AA
01-12-2006, 05:22 PM
Remember, that regardless of CG render passes looking failry convincing, there always is going to be various compositing techniques to create the final image.

Look at Matte Paintings back when they use to paint on glass, and look how much 3D is involved now, and what is going to happen within the next 10 years. Regardless of our opinions, the technology will grow, and new software will be written . . . The reason I wanted to get into Matte paintings was also the fact that I fell in love with the original paintings done by master artists . . . but I also like the fact that this is creating new ways of approaching Matte Paintings. I still use my artistsic skill, and Matte Painting experience, to apply it to 3D setups, and try creating various realism effects, just using a different CG tools.

I also do quite a bit of work for video games, where these techinques can compliment the approach, since it is still stylized, especially the fact that it would take me a lot less time to create a great base for a seamless 180, and/or 360 sky map, that I can spend time integrating photo elements, and/or paint additional sections. These renders would also compliment CG movies, cinematics, etc.

I will continue my experiements and will share future results with others . . . Also if you read my first post, this is related to landscapes as a rendering tool.

I also strongly believe that 3D artists are becoming more and more aware of the 2D approach and I know many very talented 3D artist that can also paint . . . My point is combining both skills and taking advantage of technology : )


Another Software Vue 5, worth taking a look at their studies, and coding.

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/vue/vue_5_infinite

rrische
01-12-2006, 06:30 PM
My opinion- for distant stuff it's alright. But none of
the closeup terrains are convincing enough. Terrains
have come a long way, but there's still something
"Last Starfighter"-ish about it.

AA
01-12-2006, 07:00 PM
Hey Rick,

I was refering to the distand render results, I think it is a good way to get a base for our work, let me know if you want to mess around in it, I'll share my set up files. It sure has potential . . . especially the controls for lighting, fog, and atmosphere is impressive, as well as the sun control, and it's glow across the surface map . . .Yes, the close up is not there yet . . . But hey for only US$99, this is a really cool program, and I actually met the person who wrote the code for this back when I use to work at Digital Domain, and I know he is still working on the code, and version 2 which is coming the end of this year, has volumetric clouds . . . impressive stuff

P.Nagle
01-12-2006, 08:04 PM
I use to use this application for fun a couple of years back when i was in high school and could not get my hands on a good 3D app, there stiill is a free verison out there http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/

not sure now much less you get in the free version or if it has even been updated in a while, I rememeber the render times were not to horrendous even on my old windows 98 box

just thought if anyone want to try it out for fun i would give the link to the free version, its not very intuitive or at least when I was using it, it wasnt.

Cheers,
Pat

NickATnitE
01-12-2006, 10:56 PM
All rendering and photoreal issues aside one of the great advantages to terragen is the ability to output hi res displacement maps ralativley quickly and easily. which can be of use in any 3d app...

Nick

shadu
01-13-2006, 05:41 AM
I use terragen for 2 years now and it is amazing how good it is. And i use it only on a computer 5 years (P3, 1000 MHz). You can do lot of good landscape with it. Try it the free version is on their WEB site and have almost all the feature of the complete one who cost only 100$ (i think).

With TG2 (terragen ver 2) it will advance to the nextlevel. Can wait for the beta testing.

Shadu

smooth
01-13-2006, 06:48 AM
I agree...distance stuff it's passable sometimes, but not up front with close up camera movements.
If you haven't checked out Eric Hanson's dvd's at Gnomon...check em out. It's amazing stuff. Sure it's a little more complex than the create it yourself terrain but the results are great and it could apply to modifying the terrain to meet one's particular needs. The results are alot better for film work than procedural textured terrain.

http://www.thegnomonworkshop.com/dvds/eha04.html

I'm open to any tools available to get the job done...as long as the result is amazing and believable. And the terrain generators have a looong way to go.

+smooth+

astern
01-13-2006, 08:07 AM
A bit confused about something. I thought DD used proprietary software for procedural landscape generation? Are they using the same terragen that's available to all?

thanks,

Adam

bcottman
01-13-2006, 09:56 AM
Yeah DD has an in house version. I think one of the original developers may be involved with a public version as I think Alp said. everything Ive seen looks really good.. but it isnt currently a tool being put in a matte painters hand.

kevjenkins
01-13-2006, 01:15 PM
i think tg is a good starting point if you want a sci-fi or cg kind of look. I even used it on a couple of underwater type shots last year. my prob with it is that it does not look real and thats what the Dir wanted. its very good at what it does but also feels very cg.

Da_Elf
03-05-2006, 12:36 PM
the pebl commercial blew me away when i 1st saw it. i know vray was used on it for rendering but i didnt realise it was also terragen. ive always loved terragen back when they put out the very first public beta and im really looking forward to purchasing tg2

mindcontrol
03-06-2006, 09:11 AM
RE:DD effects in Stealth

Digital Domain used their proprietary in-house tool "Engen" (sometimes referred to as "Terragen"), which is based on code originally developed by Matt Fairclough while he was working at Digital Domain. Matt is the lead developer of Terragen at Planetside Inc. The code that forms the basis for Engen was also used to ultimately create Planetside's commercial product Terragen 2, although significant development occurred since Matt left Digital Domain and the products are now quite different.

In Stealth, Engen is used primarily for terrain. Vegetation and clouds are done using other tools - Houdini for plants and Digital Domain's own proprietary volumetrics rendering software for clouds. Not all terrain shots were done with Engen and I make no guarantee that any images pictured here are entirely or even partially created using Engen.

link here: http://oshyan.ashundar.com/galleries/index.php?cat=12

jsbaxter
03-06-2006, 10:24 AM
Hay Alp..this is Jamie,hows things going over there at my old stomping grounds Hydraulx. Saw your post on Terragen and Vu5. Hows that working out? I thought of getting that Vue program. Dont know which would be better. Have any thoughts? I never really looked into it that much. From first glance they both look like Bryce..on sterioides. If that makes any sense. I like that Vue can export to Maya, although you need to buy that 500$ plug -in ..but its seems better for an existing 3d pipeline

plaf
03-06-2006, 11:50 AM
thanks for bringing this up, Alp. was just playing around with it a bit, seems like you can do some rather neat stuff with it! (those clouds on louis bianco's image... wow, just .. wow!)

AA
03-06-2006, 03:43 PM
I will share more work I did in Terragen here, also in my own Art Forum. I am also the BETA tester now for the latest verion of Terragen 2.0 which looks AMAZING, and VERY promising.

Within the next few years a lot of people will be surprised what you can do in 3D as far as realistic Vegetation and Terrain creation, as well as real atmospheres and lighting . . .

I also recently bought VUE 5 by www.e-onsoftware.com (http://www.e-onsoftware.com) which according to the article on their site is now also being used at ILM Matte Painters/3D artists.

I am doing tests 3D renders with VUE5 right now, which i will share in here soon . . . the results are amazing how convincing these cg renders can look . . .Also remember, these are straight 3D renders with no compositing or any additional render passes or effects. . . . with several render passes, and compositing touch up, the results will surprise people . . .

Again this is just the beginning of it all . . .I am also happy that some of my 3D artist friends are looking into Terragen and Vue like programs, and start creating 3D matte paintings.

I also did a recent Audio IPOD interview http://www.fxguide.com/article334.html talking about 3D matte paintings . . . I will start using these programs for Movie and Commercial projects soon

<jsbaxter>
Hay Alp..this is Jamie,hows things going over there at my old stomping grounds Hydraulx. Saw your post on Terragen and Vu5. Hows that working out? I thought of getting that Vue program. Dont know which would be better. Have any thoughts? I never really looked into it that much. From first glance they both look like Bryce..on sterioides. If that makes any sense. I like that Vue can export to Maya, although you need to buy that 500$ plug -in ..but its seems better for an existing 3d pipeline

Hey Jamie . . . things are really busy here at Hydraulx, we are moving into a new Facility next week, and we hired a lot of new people.As far as Vue 5, I highly recommend it, I bought it last week, and have been working on it non-stop, the results are amazing, especially how fast it is. I will share some of my settings/experiments in here soon.

The Visual FX shots in the movie Stealth are partially done using Terragen . . . a lot of previs shots actually. I was working at Digital Domain back then, where I was sitting next to a guy that was working on the movie using Terragen . .. . amazing stuff . . . I was also sitting with the team of people working on Volumetric Clouds using Whodini at DD. . . we'll be seeing a lot more of this type of 3D matte paintings soon in many movies

<plaf > Glad to share . . . You should go check out what you can do using Vue . . . Combining your 2D skill with these Next-Generation software packages, are soon going to change a few things in VFX


Here is some images to what you can do with this software so far what you can do with this from their website

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/solutions/images/hills.jpg

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/solutions/images/west.jpg

BELOW IMAGE SHOWCASES VOLUMETRIC CLOUDS using VUE5

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/solutions/images/Antartica.jpg

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/products/solutions/images/cliffs.jpg

Da_Elf
03-06-2006, 06:45 PM
Awsome TG stuff there. im more of a max user than a maya user and the export tools i found didnt do too good a job of exporting to max. But the good thing is vray has a really good displacement capability. The part thats sucks is that TGs materials are really nice and id have to do a fair bit of work to recreate them in max using prodecural maps. For vegitation there could either be painted in in PS or use 3d trees converted to vray proxies to increase the amount of trees i can put in a scene

AA
03-06-2006, 07:19 PM
<Da_Elf > Vray is pretty impressive ! I am creating some Matte paintings for some Video Game Cinematics on a new PS3 title where they are using VRay for really heavy geometry and the renders look insane ! I know that they have it for Maya as well, but I have not looked into yet. I want to play around with that . . . Do you have any samples of the work you are doing ?

jsbaxter
03-06-2006, 08:19 PM
I'm getting it tomarrow so I'll be able to play around with it. Cant wait

AA
03-07-2006, 04:00 AM
First renders

I just bought this program this week and these are my first renders/experiments with procedural terrains and volumetric clouds. It is a fairly large program and you can do quite a bit of tweaking, especially in the terrain editor, as well as the volumetric clouds. VERY impressive setup and engine . . . Again these are some renders after spending about an hour in it . . . there is a lot to learn, but it comes with a great book/manual about 560 pages :twisted: . . . . the windblow on tress and animation setup is also impressive. If you already are familiar with other 3D software packages, and have a technical understanding of camera setup, etc . . it is really easy to pick up, and start rendering : ) I am sure that more and more people will start using this soon

This sure was worth my money !


http://www.alpaltiner.com/vue/alp_vurTestWip03.jpg

Da_Elf
03-07-2006, 05:25 AM
welll vray for maya is still in really early beta. im a beta tester for the max version though. most of my work has been architectural visualisation pieces and some of my scenes can be as high as 250million polygons it certainly nothing like the low poly camera mapped models used in 2.5d matte paintings. the only time i did a matte painting was for a short fantast film i did a while back and the matte was mainly 3d animation that i comped the green screen actors on to. http://pages.infinit.net/elfpro/tower1.jpg is the tower. http://pages.infinit.net/elfpro/elfpro.html is my old site. This stuff i did about 7 years ago so vray and my modeling skills have come a long way since then. I guess these links are sort of appopriate since the background is a TG render using one of the really early public versions. I just made a 360 sperical environment and loaded it into the background

plaf
03-07-2006, 08:47 AM
this isn't a bad bit of software. I'm liking it! :) - and there's even a plugin so you can import .dem data. sweet!! here's an hour-doodle:

http://www.skjoldbroder.dk/iceworld800.jpg

AA
03-07-2006, 11:39 AM
Very cool <plaf> it has great mood. I created a section yesterday for this software for people to post their creations of 3D environments using Vue5. Feel free to post/share your work in there. I am working on a very detailed CG scene using VUE, where I will eventually paint on top in PS, and I will post the results. The control in the Terrain editor is quite amazing. I also brought in the geo I did in VUE into Maya, looks sweet ! :twisted:

VUE 5 Gallery
http://www.laborganika.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=64

<Da_Elf > Your work is great. I will try Vray soon, I am also VERY impressed with the GI renders you can get with VUE5 . . . . WOW . . . I will post a test of a 3D model I build in Maya, then rendered it in Vue's engine.

plaf
03-07-2006, 10:59 PM
cool, thanks a lot! I didn't realise you had a forum as well, but I just checked it out and registered there - looks like another place to stick in my bookmarks :) I think I'll try and get the VUE trial edition (I have to be a little cheap at the moment since I'm not working anymore, but back at university)
- the above image was done in terragen... hmmm... which I think I'll start up and give a whirl right now! ^__^

AA
03-07-2006, 11:05 PM
I am one of the BETA testers for the new version of Terragen http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/ which is not available for public yet. This program has huge potential. Especially for things that are further away, such as backdrops and background elements. Thought I'll share a very early work in progress file with everyone. First render test . . . The terrain is Produceral and the clouds are volumetric all done in Terragen. Again this is a very early test render of this scene I am building showcasing the potential of this software. You can animate the camera flying over the environment with alpha channels for both sky and terrain for further twaeks and adjustments. You can also easily create a 180 and/or 360 panorama of this. I will share/post updates.

plaf wrote;
cool, thanks a lot! I didn't realise you had a forum as well, but I just registered there.

Thanks for registering in the LabOrganika Art Forum http://www.laborganika.com/forum/index.php , which I started about couple of months back and it already has over 900 people in the community, it is growing very fast.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/alpalpalp/alpTerrBetaTest05.jpg

Da_Elf
03-08-2006, 05:41 AM
technically speaking i guess proper compositing procedure would be to have a black ground, no shadows and white fog going into the distance to simulate a z-depth render. then have a textured render with no shadows and no fog for diffuse pass, then have your sky layer, then maybe black ground with your volumetric puffy clouds which might cover some areas (like low laying clouds on a mountain top), it would be great to render a normal map but since you cant do that a simple shadow pass would have to suffice. beta testers have alot of power depending on how close they cnverse with the main programmer. i talk with vlado about vray almost every day on msn. what im saying is maybe you can suggest to the guy incharge of terragen to add in a normal map shader.

AA
03-08-2006, 11:51 AM
<Da_Elf > Good point and suggestions ! Normal Map shader sounds Great !I just started testing Terragen BETA this week . . . The skies are very impressive, I will be doing a lot of render tests within the next 3 months.

I think there always can be a combination of packages/software you can use, and take the best out of one to get the job done. I use PS, Maya , Painter, Zbrush, and now Terragen and Vue 5 . . . It is always good to experiment with new software, and people will eventually see more and more of these type of next-gen packages joining the market to give many artists the option to come up with new and faster ways to create digital set/environments.

I remember when ZBrush first came out, not many people knew about it, including my self . . . .People were like " No way you can do that . . . " look at it now, most VFX studios are using it, and many 3D modelers . . . . The new version that they are coming up with will allow you to go up to over 10 milion polygons. Who would have thought that you will have digital clay one day for Organic Modeling . . . . I feel the same way with Terragen and Vue like programs that will be seen more and more in the near future in major Hollywood movies . . . .

AA
03-08-2006, 11:13 PM
I am doing many test renders, and here is a very early work in progress all 3D Matte painting scene I created using Terragen 2 BETA (There is no Photoshop touch up in this render) Originally rendered at 4000 pixels (4k) This small compressed jpg version does not do justice . . . the highres version has GREAT detail ! ! !

It took a while trying to figure out many shader, atmosphere, fog, sky, lighting, and terrain (list goes on: ) attributes, and hours of tweaking to get certain things looking convincing . . but again this is just a very early stage WIP . . straight 3D render

I will add various 3D geometry into the scene that I am building in Maya and I will be then adding highres detail in Zbrush. After that I will create projections in Maya, and create a 3D camera move for this scene. I'll share the quicktime with everyone here

More to come . . . .




http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/alpalpalp/alpTerrBetaTest04C.jpg

AA
04-15-2006, 08:25 PM
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So go check this out guys, some newer images in the gallery of Terragen 2. Like I mentioned this in my earlier posts here , being one of the beta testers for Terragen's new version, there is a team of us trying many new things within the software. I can't wait until it will be become available for the public, and people will start seeing what this powerful program is capable of doing . . . Also the current version is $99 USD . . . Now that's a bargain !

Below image rendered using Terragen 2 with no touch up is just another GREAT example of this tehnology showcasing the potential 3D terrains and how quickly it is growing, and getting closer to have very convincing results. Things will take time, there will be a lot of hard work, tweaking, and trying . . but the effort in trying new ways and techniques will pay off in the long run . . . A huge thanks again to Matt for writing the code for this program, and still developing it further every day !

http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tgd/images/mars_surface_07_post_crop.jpg


Here is the link to the website that has this image below created by Matt

http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tg ... php?group= (http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tgd/gallery/gallerymain.php?group=)

Below link is the FAQ page for Terragen 2, the forthcoming major new release of Terragen, completely rewritten from the ground up.

http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/tgd/tg2faq.shtml

Dream Artisan
04-16-2006, 09:32 AM
Now these are really impressive! My vote is for Terragen.

RALawrence
04-19-2006, 04:27 PM
I understand that ILM is going to be using Vue a lot from now on. I think mathematically generated environment renders are helpful to start from. Just can't leave them that way :wink:

AA
04-24-2006, 02:48 PM
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Another example of Terragen 2 technology. Below is a 3D render by Christianfly with no touch up's . . . you can still see some artifacts, and stretch, but it is fairly impressive as is . .

The origianl source for this image

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=1196144&Artist=christianfly&Start=1&ByArtist=Yes&Form.sess_id=648493&Form.sess_key=1145914551



http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3541/galleryimage11961441mc.jpg