Professionalism and Artistic Opinion

[RiKToR]

I know there is always a debate about what constitutes a matte painting, is it artistic, is only purpose driven, can be illustrative? There is a certain amount of professionalism that is required by members in this forum and the trolling in a poster's thread about whether or not there piece is a matte painting needs to STOP. There is no need to argue a point that many have different opinions on. I know of users driven away by this very bickering and there talents and experience are a cornerstone to people learning here.

A good mattepainter is a good concept artist, or at least we would hope so. Any such deviations from what is typicaly accepted as matte paintings should be treated as an advancement of skill sets. If you think that the work is not a mattepainting and you don't want to see it here, keep that opinion to yourself and ignore the thread... others are willing to help an artist experiment with different techniques or at the very least direct them to a forum that best suits there needs.

Im asking you all one member to another please make these threads less about semantics and more about the technique.

Thanks

[rockhoppermedia]

Well said Cliff,

you know that I am good at concept art, just finding it hard to make the transition to matte painting.

All I ask is that members think before they speak,

When i critique, i start on a high then critic the main points good and bad but I always leave the critique on a high and a invitation to show again.

This never happened to me at art college i was just ripped time and time again. 15 years later i am coming back into art because i was so scared to show any of my images. I am a bloody awful mattepainter and the encouragement of many of the established mattepainters has kept me going. When you get a pm of a ILM staffer (thanks) encouraging you to keep at it, it makes your day.

Matte painting is not all spaceports, castles and sunsets, it is painting antennaes, burglar alarms, cars out of historical buildings for really dull plates. It is about selling the idea, dream and expectations of a audience. If people want to post a abstract idea, let them. Encorage them to make it photorealistic push the boundaries.

If it concerns you that the item of art is not a mattepainting it would be a simple to let the forum moderators to have forum thread for abstract mattes to be placed into. We can all find inspiration from others talents and see the world afresh.

Nuff said

Still enjoying painting and currently working on a fantastic project

Rich

[nickmarshallvfx]

I agree. There is too much debate going on about what is and isn't a matte painting. I saw some matte paintings from shrek 3 (in print), and thought to myself 'yea that's definitely a matte painting, but if i posted it on mp.org i think it would be blasted for being an illustration'. I've been guilty of it myself in the past until i began to realise that there is more diversity to matte painting than initially meets the eye.
I have to say, there are different types of matte painter too. We see a lot of the work of people like Dylan Cole and Dusso, who tend to have worked on more fantasy type work. We see a lot less invisible matte painting where it really is just a tiny piece of set extension etc. I think that is because it does not stand on its own as a piece of art as much, but i would love to see more invisible stuff on there boards.

Being able to give good critique is a slightly different thing, but Rich makes a good point about it because it does seem that some people crit others work in a way that they would be devestated if they were critiqued in the same way.

I really love the community here, and have got some really valuable opinions and comments, as well as just being able to ask questions where the right people can answer. That is why mp.org is my first port of call when I get up. I just know i will find inspiration there. Id hate to see it all go downhill...

Anyway, I think in general this place is still the best place to be, but lets stop all the 'is' and 'is not' matte painting talks, and do as Riktor said and just ignore it if you dont agree, or suggest a different forum. At the end of the day, if someone has posted what is obviously in the wrong place, they probably will appreciate being given a better forum to post it in.

[mastermesh]

Shoot, if you look back through art history, you will find that most artists are only put in to their genres later by critics... I'm sure some of the early cubists, surrealists, impressionists, and gobs of others didn't stare at their blank canvases before starting to paint and say, "by golly, I think I'm going to make a cubist painting now," etc.

The term Matte Painting is something that's actually just a coined phrase... a concept that hasn't really been around all that many years...

If you want to get in to all the semnatics and stuff, you could argue that anything done in Photoshop or on a computer isn't really a matte painting since it wasn't done the traditional way the original matte painters did it many years ago before everyone and their dog had a computer sitting at home or in a studio...

[RiKToR]

Also, artistic style is entirely interpretive and creates a differing emotion with each person. So if someone used a pallete that you don't care for it shouldnt matter unless there is an actual mis-interpretation of pallete, ie over saturated colors based on lack of experience.

[swoop]

If you really want to do a mattepainting as required in the industry you have to remove from your painting the fire, the smoke, the water, the birds, every elements that could move to do it in comp.
Stop fighting about the definitiion of the mattepainting, when you put all this elements in your work, it becomes an illustration...
And about the 2D and 3D thing, both are used to do some mattepainting. A 3D environment is a kind of a matte painting too...

[Suirebit]

I agree with swoop. However the fact the we post them on the net sort of pushes us into making them illustrations. But this is an old debate and it doesn't really matter if it is or not an illustration, as long as it's a matte painting by technique.

However, no Riktor, I'm sorry that we got so opposite in opinions, but based on your logic, we could start posting here anime and characters (with a photo as background) just because they are a what? "an advancement of skill sets"? No please, keep these forums for matte paintings, there's conceptart.org for the rest, mkay?

Mastermesh> traditional matte painting was done on glass, yes. However we now have a completely new genre called Digital Matte Painting. Two different things, Two methods, Two different supports, same goal.

And Riktor again (now a little off-topic), one other thing that bothers me is subjectivity. If a "pro" posts here a sh*t piece (*hint*), everyone jumps "Oh how nice how beautiful how perfect it is"; if the same piece is posted by a newcomer he gets blasted. Why don't you have the balls to make the same negative comments on the "Pro"'s thread too?

[RiKToR]

I dont recall not being able to speak my my mind, as matter of fact I rarely see who made the post to begin with before I reply. So if you are implying that I lack integrity to point out a mistake to a pro rather then a beginer you are sadly mistaken.

[nickmarshallvfx]

Suirebit - I simply cannot agree that when a pro posts here, everybody jumps in and says "Oh how nice how beautiful how perfect it is".
The fact is that is the poster is a professional, then there work is highly likely to be of a higher standard than a lot of the amateur work on this site. However, if you look into the Professional Thread, at Max Gabl's recent Star Trek Remastered painting (http://www.mattepainting.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3624) you can see that both me and Kutkin gave some critiques there as we thought there were improvements to be made, even though this was finished and been put into the production already.
However, this didn't turn into an argument or Max getting defensive because all comments (and crits) were well worded. In fact it turned it a good conversation about constraints of the industry and differences between film work and television work.

All that people need to do is think a bit before they type...

Nick

[Ricardo Garces]

I was hopping to not get involved in this one. But heck, if we have to keep discussing the same stuff over and over again, I might as well be part of it.

First I agree, this forum is not intended for any works that are not matte paint related. So characters or whatever should not be placed here, unless they are part of a shot, and they are relevant to the work presented.

For instance I am working right now, on a piece where I have a picture as background and 3D for foreground. When I will think it is time, I will post everything here. The shot, and all inclusive elements, for appreciation and review.

Secondly, I was amazed by the way some of you guys dealt with the comments on DeGerardo last work ( that keeps spreading into other threads like this one ). DeGerardo piece, in my opinion has nothing of ordinary. Yes it is some hills, but the whole point in his work is the desaturated palette which gives it a mysterious environment and mood, and if you checked his previous works, its a new path he discovered.
We are all enthusiasts and professionals, and we all have our areas of expertise matte related. Some are more comfortable with underwater scenes, other with mountains, cities, etc.
DeGerardo piece was an experiment to him. It was important in his evolution.

No one should have the right to come here and say, "that piece is a shit, it has no imagination, and anyone could have done it". This happened more or less with DeGerardo.
Christ... what were you guys thinking?
I am glad you think it is easy to do it, because I couldn't. DeGerardo had that vision to make that image.
Like I have other visions based on my experience and life. I have pieces that took me less than a couple hours to do, and now that they are done, anyone could have done them. But the plate photos were taken by me, on a specific location, with a specific light, at a specific day.
So yes, now you could copy the pieces, but no, "everyone" could not have done it. They are a product of my imagination, my life and the places I have been to.

More importantly you guys are accusing someone of different behavior towards colleagues, while the only "proof" you have is that we liked DeGerardo piece and commented positively on it, while there is no proof that a good piece was mistreated of a non popular person.
How the heck do you come to the conclusion that Riktor or me or anybody else address differently regarding popularity with this statement?

The last time I had a discussion in this forum, was with the same people I am addressing now. And it is funny, I never commented this, but at that time someone said something like "the problems come always from the same people" regarding myself. Really?

I have nothing against anyone. Not everyone needs to like me. But we are colleagues and that puts us on the same boat all together. We have to get along. And I don't expect you guys to throw me a life vest if the boat sinks. But that's fine.

Kind regards,

Ricardo.

[RiKToR]

And how does creating and anime character with a photo backdrop constitute extending ones matte skills? The subjects of art though similar do not focus on matte painting or environment work. If such a post did exist I would gently push ConceptArt.org as and alternative for better feedback to that style. On the other hand there have been a large number of posts showing print work and variations of skill sets used for creating mattes various ways, the ones that focus much character development and/ or abstract artistic approaches are tend to recommended to alternatives where there work can be seen by others of a similar mindset.

that's surely not a matte painting

You said that in this post, http://www.mattepainting.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=22829&highlight=#22829
So you are saying that unless its finished its not a matte painting? Some beginers are confused on just how begin conceptually and yet you would shoot them down because its not even close to finished and polished. A matte painter is required to be a concept artist, they do not always get handed concept art and say use this. A large chunk of the training material out there is focused on the conceptual side. Dusso Vol 1, Dylan Cole Vol 1 and 2 Christian Lorenz Schuer (sp?) all volumes. I would argue that concept art DVD resources would include some of the Ryan Church titles and some Scott Robertson and Feng Zhu, yet none of those end of with polished mattes, but they do have and excellent approach to painting light, composition, perspective, palette, value, atmospheric perspective, the list goes on.

However, http://www.mattepainting.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=21890&highlight=#21890
in this post a person posted a character focused piece which you liked yet because it seemed effort was put into the environment so it was passed pver?

Or this recent post, http://www.mattepainting.org//forum/viewtopic.php?p=23465&highlight=#23465 there is some skill here and hell I'll even take it further and say that this person puts a little more effort in composition then I do at first. Also you were for warned in the thread title that it was a fashion editorial... but you cannot argue that techniques were the same for matte generation that is similar to workflow like that of Alp Altiner and the breakdowns would likely interest new comers who were curious. Yet you shoot it down? I concede you did give them credit on a good work yet the feelings were that despite the effort is wasnt a matte... what is the difference between this and the previous post?

I guess I ask where the line is, IMO we all have to start somewhere and we all have to where the hat of a concept artist, industrial designer, architect, cinematographer, and traditional artist at some point and so we might as well embrace some of these things that leads to a better artist.

[RiKToR]

Nick and Ricardo have my agreements as well. The bottom line is language is often interpreted different from the speaker's intended meaning, that with tone and inflection being heard by the listener to aid in the hearing. Here we have only words and tones and perceptions can be applied to anything and often wrong IMO. To say that something "is surely not a matte painting" could mean so many things about wasted posts and time and it tells so little to help someone improve. Hell at the very least if it was considered a ConceptArt.org piece a suggestion could have been made that there artistic question would be better served there.

The debate is always up on this, and sadly it will never change. I also feel that this site is undermoderated so lacks a finality to what this site is willing to accept. Regardless of your opinions on the matter... (TO ALL MEMBERS)

I ask that if your in question about a post, dont debate it in that thread that is rude to the artist and irritating to people reading suggestions to add upon.. If you want to debate the piece post a link to the thread here and address your opinion in this thread so people who desire to debate the merits can do so without being rude to anyones request for critique. If you feel that another group or website can help more direct them there politely and be done with it. In the end even if we all had a strict opinion on the allowances taken into account there will always be post outside of those allowances because of the constant confusion to the subject.

[Suirebit]

Riktor> firstly, the subjectivity comment was not directed at you as accused, it was a 'general' speaking, a 'general' you; I've mentioned your name because I wanted to debate with you about this critical aspect.

I can't dig in now but I've seen this attitude plenty of times, in the past. again, it was a general remark about attitude of *some* members, found on every site.

Second, about the links you gave - we've already discussed the case of those print works too much. I maintain my opinion that they are not matte paintings. If you think otherwise it's your opinion, after all we're here to express our opinions, and everyone's point should be respected.


Lastly, you are right about moderation and sadly if no one steps in soon, this place will turn either in a new conceptart.org either into a warzone (hopefully not).

But I promise you that from now on, instead of saying 'it's not a matte painting' I will point them towards conceptart.org . Is that ok? :P

[mordecaidesign]

Beastie Boys: $hit...if this is gonna be that kinda party I'm gunna go stick my D1ck in the mashed patatas!

I think that quote pretty much sums it up from me.

[rockhoppermedia]

Hi,

I joined mattepainting org to get better at matte painting. I wanted to learn by example and failure.

I dont like to hear you guys arguing about what constitutes this that and the other. I know it will be a long time before I get a job in this field. The last thing I want to experience when I do get a job is to find out that you guys dont get on.

there are some strong opinions here about what is concept and what is matte. I would like to encourage members of this community to post there sketches and workflow onto the WIP forum. evolution of the idea can show where the artist went wrong. I encourage you all to think before you write you can unwittingly upset someones career. This happened to me many years ago. I was petrified to pick up a pencil and draw i used to have panic attacks. Matte painting org has helped me to pick up the pen again.

it distresses me that there is a lot of bickering, we are a small community lets help each other. We are all entitled to opinions, but remember opinions can be very powerful verbal weapons. I posted a matte that i had two hours to do for a advertising campaign, it was annihilated on another site and i have not posted again.

Riktor and nick , rquack are helping me pick up the wacom pen again for the Axum project. I can do rough concept art, matte painting has always been a gulf to me.

Please please i beg you all to be a little kinder to each other, you may have to work together in the future. All this arguing is scaring me into not posting.

I promise to out anyone mercilessy whose critique is insulting, derogartory.

we should have a covenant on this site that all members must adhere to,

RISE

Respect
Integrity
Support
Enthusiasm

these core values should be in everyones critique wether it be a matte painting, concept or first attempt. everyone who posts here always calls their matte "first attempt" to remind you guys that they are noobies. I am still physically sick when I post an image. A ILM matte painter told me to stick with it when i first started I have the printout in my wallet when times are hard i look at it.

Lets celebrate and enjoy our art, and everyones elses!

Nuff said

Rich

Prolific poster, shockingly bad artist.

[matellis]

Interesting thread... thou I have nothing to add besides LETS GET ROCKING THE CANVASES!

:D

[Speculart]

I think many matte painters are asked to do concepts for shots, this 'concept art' is all part of the process. I would be very interested in seeing these concept pieces on this forum, be it in the sketch thread or the WIP thread.
I would never want someone to feel that they couldn't post something that others, with similar interests, may find interesting. Sure I wouldn't post my watercolor portraits here. What would be the point? But If someone was to post their landscape painting I would love to have a look. I am sure others would too. I am interested. Lets not try to define ourselves out of existence! :lol:

[matellis]

Maybe it is a good idea for anyone interested to start up their own sketchbook thread. For me personally , I am very interested in seeing any kind of art that other matter painters are working on. And I think all these other forms of art can help develope skills that can help matte painting in one way or another.

Cheers

[nickmarshallvfx]

Good point Speculart. I have posted some of my watercolour landscape sketches in the sketch thread before, why not, its all relevent.
I think Matellis has got a great idea there. I would love to see a sketchbook thread added here like they have at ca.org for all our random stuff that people may still want to see but that isn't matte painting.

Nick