How important is 3d to matte painting?

[photoshopped]

Hi there,

I was just wondering how important everyone thinks using 3d software is in digital matte painting.

Also, which 3d package is best for landscapes / cityscape scenes etc.

Thanks,

Jay

[bechira]

first of all I think is is good to generate relief forms (here u can use almost any 3d package but vue6 and zbrush are on top), or u can check your perspective isuues with 3d basic shapes and finally can make some nice camera projections...so I think the use of 3D is very important.

[photoshopped]

Hi bechira,

Thanks for the advice. How long would you say it should take to learn most packages to a standard suitable for matte etc. I know it varies with everyone, but roughly based on someone who is quick to learn.

Many thanks,

Jay

[bechira]

i really don't know...it depends on each one, like u said...but I think in 2 months u can master all that stuff.
u can check the gnomon dvds to learn it.

[photoshopped]

Thats great cheers, I will have to look into it.

Regards,

Jay

[nickmarshallvfx]

Sorin, when you say generate relief forms in 3D, could you expand on that a little? Do you mean modelling areas that you can apply as textures on your mattes (like a row of windows etc)?

Thanks mate

Nick

[bechira]

u can generate mountins, trees etc...even entire ecosystems. Almost anything that helps u create the work u want. I think there's no limits..the only limit is the deadline :D

[RiKToR]

The time it takes to learn 3d varies, but I believe if you really dedicated your time and had some good reference materials (like gnomon or digital tutors) you can pick up the basics of a specific app in about a month, which is about enough to do rough geometry setups and projections. You obviously will spend most of you time in photoshop developing the look so you wont have to learn lighting and intense shading networks so your really on focusing on basic modeling, camera setups/animation, and rendering.

Some terrain apps like Vue have a little more learning to then to get the most out of stuff like ecosystems but generally about the same amount of time for them as well.

[nickmarshallvfx]

Can anybody tell me, when I create a 3D model to be used in a matte, is it better to texture and light it in my 3D app, or import it to PS, and then texture it and light it in there?

Thanks

Nick

[Alex Jenyon]

Can anybody tell me, when I create a 3D model to be used in a matte, is it better to texture and light it in my 3D app, or import it to PS, and then texture it and light it in there?

Which will be easier?

Which will give better results?

And most importantly:

Which will be quicker?

No-one can answer this question for you - it's completely subjective! It will change from shot to shot, and from person to person based on deadlines, available tools, and your skillset.

[photoshopped]

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply with the useful info.

[nickmarshallvfx]

Thanks Alex!
I guess as I am better versed in Photoshop than 3D apps I will do it that way round :D
Cheers guys, this thread appeared just the the right time for me :D

Nick

[photoshopped]

Yeah, so far I have never used any 3d application apart from Swift 3d which is just for flash based web content really.

Might have a go though, when I get some money and some time.

Jay

[bvz]

I think 3D can be a HUGE benefit when doing matte paintings. Not necessary of course. But in the right situation it can be very helpful.

Specifically if you are painting hard surfaces (buildings, cars, etc.) you can use the 3D model to do 2 things: Make sure your perspective is dead on and give you a base layer of shading/lighting that will help make your image more "real".

As to whether or not to texture your models before painting over them, that is a shot by shot decision. I had to do a painting for a film which involved a lot of small houses on a snowy plain. Instead of painting each and every house I just created about 15 "standard" houses and textured them in UV space (sort of a standard 3D texturing method). I then rendered the entire scene lit roughly in the manner in which I wanted the final image to look. Naturally, a quickie 3D render looked really bad, but it was a good base on which to start painting. From there I added a lot of detail, shading, and color tweaks to the final image. But I didn't have to paint the whole thing from scratch and that saved me a LOT of time (and improved the final image quality as well).

On another painting I am working on right now I modeled the geometry in 3D and then just rendered out a lit but un-textured version (using ambient occlusion and final gathering to get soft shadows and bounced lights). The image looks like it was made of white card stock. (you can see it here: http://www.mattepainting.org/forum/view ... 0505#20505 (http://www.mattepainting.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20505#20505)). But I use this image as a shading layer (place it on top of the painted color layers and set its transfer mode to multiply). Eventually I flatten this layer down into the painting and start painting on top of that but in the early stages of getting the base lighting and shading, it is a godsend.

Just about any 3D package these days will give you what you need to do these simple steps. Personally I only have experience with Modo and Maya and Lightwave but you should be able to do it with any of the other packages out there. (Actually, to be honest, I don't know if Modo will let you do a full 3D projection, but for the steps I listed above it should work just fine). Check around for a simple 3D app online and I am sure you will be able to find one for free or very nearly free. I think the key items you are looking for are ease of use (which would rule out Maya :) ) and the ability to render out Global Illumination (most packages these days can do that). Blender is a free 3D app that seems fairly complete but might have a steeper learning curve than you would want (but, hey... it's free, right?). Check out http://www.blender.org/ (I have never used it so I can't vouch for it in any way)

The other possibility is Modo which has a free 30 day demo. If you do get it, you will also have a fairly steep learning curve, but nothing near Maya's. If you try Modo I would suggest dropping matte painting for the 30 days and focusing on learning the app. There are a bunch of tutorials on their website (www.luxology.com (http://www.luxology.com)) and if you really spend the time to learn it you will be in great shape not just for Modo but for any other 3D app.

Oh! I almost forgot! Try Sketchup. (http://www.sketchup.com/). It is a very very easy to use 3D modeler and it is also free. It does not have a renderer so you will have to find a 3rd party renderer to use with it. You can try Kerkythea (http://www.kerkythea.net/joomla/) which may or may not be free I don't know.

At any rate, good luck!

ben

[photoshopped]

Hi bvz,

Thanks for taking the time to provide me with all that great and very useful info, it is much appreciated. I think you have made very good points and explained it all very well.

I am going to look into getting some 3d software very soon as I can clearly see how it can be useful and valuable when time is important.

All the best and bye for now,

Jay

[ahtiandr]

Can anybody tell me, when I create a 3D model to be used in a matte, is it better to texture and light it in my 3D app, or import it to PS, and then texture it and light it in there?

Thanks

Nick

I think it is better to make lightning and texturing in 3d app and then correct and add more details to your lightning and texturing in photoshop . For example Chris Stoski uses this tactic in one of his DVDs .

[nickmarshallvfx]

Thanks Ahtiandr
Actually, since posting that message, I have bought Chris Stoskis dvds and am moving along with it in that way :D

Nick

[mastermesh]

there's free and watered down demo versions of most of the big 3d apps out there.

Personally, I'm a big advocate of Lightwave, mainly since it's cheaper than some other packages when you get in to looking at price vs what all the thing can do... 3dsmax is about 3 times more expensive than Lightwave... Maya is too...

If you get in to animations, Lightwave + Motionbulder used to be nice... but ever since Kaydara was bought out by the same company that runs Maya and 3dsmax, that's no longer the case... especially since the freelancer version of motionbuilder no longer is supported or sold...

If you can learn free stuff and/or cheap stuff the need for the extra pricy junk is not needed really...

When i first started getting in to 3d back in the 90s a little, I remember some 3d packages actually cost 30k... Luckily for us, most of the high end ones are now down to under 5k... and the stuff like Lightwave is down to 1k... still a bit pricy for some, but not all that pricey... it just gets expensive if you buy every version that comes out... I originally tried out trueSpace 3, then moved up to 4, and 5... got to master it a bit, and finally learned how buggy the system was (trueSpace has tons of bugs that will crash on you when working in booleans and similar type stuff)... after that I looked around at several packages and ultimately went with Lightwave 7 after some serious thought about it and reading lots of forums all over the web and looking at what others have done with various packages, etc... I skipped out on 8 and recently went with and upgrade to version 9...

For photoshop, I'm still running version 5 LE... and it's good enough for most of my needs.

When you get upgrade happy is when your pocket book will start hurting unless you have some serious clientele.... us freelancers/newbie folks that just do this stuff for hobbies can't always afford the latest and greatest..

When it comes to 3d apps, keep an eye on your local bookstore and look for Computer Arts, 3d World, and similar type mags... they usually have full applications on cds several times a year... lots of software companies like to do that with older versions when they release new versions so you can get the older versions for way cheap... I got quark express, cinema 4d, realsoft, my original freelancer version of motionbuilder, d-sculptor, and gobs of other software like that.

Also, check out lots of forums... cgtalk.com, newtek.com, spinquad.com,

3dlinks.com used to be the center of the cg world... but cgtalk is more nowadays...

Also, go visit 3dbuzz.com and download and watch as many vtms over there as you can... lots of info you can pick up there for free.