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zoki
04-08-2006, 11:28 AM
hi
I am trying to do sci fi classic 70's 80's city like from Dune or original Star wars
It is still wip so any sugestions are welcome
z
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/zoki/36339335.jpg

minieffects
04-08-2006, 03:47 PM
My only comment at this point is what is your focal point of the shot. It appears to be the large tower in the mid ground, however your foreground is too close in value to the mid-ground to seperate the two. Try darkening the foreground and add elements to lead your eye to the large tower if that is your focal point. You should take a look at some paintings done by Alp Altiner, Dusso, or Dylan Cole and study the layout of the shot and see where the image takes your eye.

Its a great start,keep going, I look foward to seeing it finished.


minieffects

Noel B
04-08-2006, 05:33 PM
I like this piece as is. You have to remember that matte paintings are supposed to blend in as the background. Unless your Matte is the purpose of the shot (Ie. establishing) then whats more important then a focal point is matching the lighting and details.
Focal points would be needed if this was just a wall painting at an art gallery.

JMHO

minieffects
04-08-2006, 06:06 PM
I suppose the question would then be is this a matte painting for background purposes, an establishing shot or a painting for a gallery as you said Noel b.

My comments were based on the fact that he is posting in this forum and therefore he is intending it to be a mattepainting. If this is the case the most common of these is the establishing shot dont you agree? You are correct that lighting and detail are important but I would not place them above focal point or compostion, but equally as important. Every shot in a film has a focal point whether it be a matte, or miniature or simply a character in a room. The point is to lead the viewer to where you wish him or her to spend there time focusing on otherwise its just a pretty painting and you lose the original intent of the shot.

Focal points would be needed if this was just a wall painting at an art gallery

I have to respectfully disagree with you on this comment. You should really study films like Gladiator, freeze frame during the opening battle and you will notice that most every shot is a painting, and every shot has a focal point. You have to remember that whether you are hanging it on a wall or projecting it in a theater the point is to entice your audience into the world you have created and keep them there for as long as possible focused on the guiding element of the shot. Really good directors use the same tricks that the master painters of yesterday used to pull in the viewer. Im sorry for the long winded response and Noel B. and I dont wish you to think that I dont value your opinion, I just disagree with some of it.


Respectfully


Minieffects

Noel B
04-08-2006, 07:02 PM
Whats funny is that I was agreeing with you and you 2nd post just re-idirates thats.
As for all mattes at all times having a focal points and my refrence making them stll works in an artgallery if that were the case; you also proved my point even when you were trying to disagree.


"freeze frame during the opening battle and you will notice that most every shot is a painting, and every shot has a focal point.

well if you have to freez frame it, it then becomes a still piece and there for anyone can choose to pick there own focal point. You may freeze a frame in gladiator and you I will probably pick out different focal shots.

My point is if every shot had a focal point it would de-tract from the live action and would make the shot too busy.....

Thats all I was saying originally not every shot needs a focal point or the audiences would all have seizures....hahaha..

minieffects
04-08-2006, 09:09 PM
:?I may have misunderstood your statement:

Focal points would be needed if this was just a wall painting at an art gallery.

Its just that the statement implied that a focal point is only needed in a painting in a gallery and that was what I was specifically disagreeing with.


Unless your Matte is the purpose of the shot (Ie. establishing) then whats more important then a focal point is matching the lighting and details.

I was assuming that he was going for an establishing shot and therefore I felt my comment about focal point was important within the context of the post. I was also refering to the completed shot in regards to a focal point. In other words if you are providing a background painting and the live action element is the "focal point " of the shot then you have to be mindfull of this when creating the background painting so your painting does not distract from the focal point. As you said Noel matte paintings are supposed to blend in as the background I wasnt disagreeing with you about lighting and detail,I just ment that they are all equally important. If Zoki is intending to provide matte paintings for film then he should just be mindfull of all elements involved within the shot otherwise it is just a painting in a gallery. If I assumed wrong or misunderstood what you said then I appologize.


well if you have to freez frame it, it then becomes a still piece and there for anyone can choose to pick there own focal point. You may freeze a frame in gladiator and you I will probably pick out different focal shots.


As for freeze framing shots from gladiator it was simply because some shots are very short and its easier to study them this way and see "the directors" intended focal point.


My point is if every shot had a focal point it would de-tract from the live action and would make the shot too busy.....

Perhaps I didnt convey what I was thinking properly.
I was speaking in regards to a shot in a film not the specific elements that make up the shot ie:matte, model, etc.... All shots in a film have a focal point ie: a specific person or place or object. Whatever the director is trying to get you to pay attention to specifically within the story, in my humble opinion.

sorry Zoki this is alot more than you probably wanted. The painting is great keep up the good work.

Thanks for the chat Noel. I will try to be more specific in the future.

Minieffects :D

zoki
04-09-2006, 01:10 AM
ha
I see a nice little discussion taking here
I would have to say this one leans more to the back/establishing shot
But my main aim for now is to paint excatly whats necessary and nothing more to achiewe atmosphere, complexity of city, different materials
Right now I am reading and looking at paintings in book The Invisible art and as a painter I am the most amazed by their simplicity than anything else!
One line that keeps apearing through book is "Use the Big brush"
and I think those guys were closer to Velasquez and Vermeer and Richard Estes than anything else.
Just to share what I am thinking now....
:roll:
here are the render passes
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v436/zoki/render_passes.jpg

Da_Elf
04-09-2006, 06:53 AM
why not render it as a single GI pass? or did you want to make changes in post interactivly with your passes. the majot problem im seeing here is your sky is really overcast yet your sunlight isnt diffused. i would have used way more ambient light than sunlight and the sunlight i would have had more of a soft shadow.

zoki
04-09-2006, 07:16 AM
rendering in passes gives much more control
I got to base color pass colorizing and combining diferent pases in photoshop
and even when it is finished you can overlay them
Sky is overcast here in the background but on the far left outside of picture is a hole in clouds and sun lighting strongly the facades

Da_Elf
04-09-2006, 03:27 PM
:) cool. nice pic though. i did forget to mention that.

Jay_Gladwell
04-10-2006, 04:13 AM
... there for anyone can choose to pick there own focal point.
Noel, if that is indeed the case, then the artist has failed. In any successfully designed piece--whatever it may be--it is the artist's responsibility to design the piece so as to "guide" the viewer's eye throughout the piece.

Noel B
04-10-2006, 06:08 PM
... there for anyone can choose to pick there own focal point.

Noel, if that is indeed the case, then the artist has failed. In any successfully designed piece--whatever it may be--it is the artist's responsibility to design the piece so as to "guide" the viewer's eye throughout the piece.

I'm just wandering with all your posts have you ever posted your own work? I went through 4 pages of your posting history and couldn't see any of your original work.
I do however remember when you had the nerve to retouch that members work re-post it then have it chosen as a feature piece.
you always have an opinion but never post your own work...... I take all crits well and as I am new to matte paintings but not to the art world so not need to talk down like i'm 6.

Remember this piece by the artist is still WIP so calling it a failure is kind of a low blow.

My comment was focal points in general i suggest your read better.... this piece is great color selection and lighting..... i'm sure the artist will make this even better in his final stages and I can't wait tho see it.

Noel B
04-10-2006, 06:10 PM
... there for anyone can choose to pick there own focal point.

Noel, if that is indeed the case, then the artist has failed. In any successfully designed piece--whatever it may be--it is the artist's responsibility to design the piece so as to "guide" the viewer's eye throughout the piece.

I'm just wandering with all your posts have you ever posted your own work? I went through 4 pages of your posting history and couldn't see any of your original work.
I do however remember when you had the nerve to retouch that members work re-post it then have it chosen as a feature piece.
you always have an opinion but never post your own work...... I take all crits well and as I am new to matte paintings but not to the art world so not need to talk down like i'm 6.

Remember this piece by the artist is still WIP so calling it a failure is kind of a low blow.

My comment was focal points in general i suggest your read better.... this piece is great color selection and lighting..... i'm sure the artist will make this even better in his final stages and I can't wait tho see it.

Jay_Gladwell
04-10-2006, 07:38 PM
I'm just wandering with all your posts have you ever posted your own work? I went through 4 pages of your posting history and couldn't see any of your original work.
Noel, I'm not a matte artist and I've never professed to be one. I have a degree in art/design and an MFA in filmmaking. I've worked professionally as a commercial photographer, have taught art on both a high school and college level, have worked in both film and video, and currently own and operate a small video production company. I've been making images, in one form or another--both still and moving--for over 35 years. Therefore, in my mind, I'm as well qualified as anyone to carry on an intelligent, informed discussion about art, design, imagery, and lighting.

I do however remember when you had the nerve to retouch that members work re-post it then have it chosen as a feature piece.
Being one who works in images, I thought it would be easier to "show" what I meant rather than "talk" about it. Was that wrong? No, I don't think so. It was an unfortunate mistake, not on my part, that the image I adjusted the levels on was used as an example of the original artist's work.

You conveniently neglected to mention that I contacted the administration as soon as I saw the error and told them about the mistake. You also conveniently neglected to mention that I wrote an apology to the artist and the community in these very regards.

you always have an opinion but never post your own work......
That was addressed above.

I take all crits well and as I am new to matte paintings but not to the art world so not need to talk down like i'm 6.
I did not talk down to you. I merely addressed your comment in a manner of fact way. I thought I was speaking as one artist to another. I'm sorry if it made you felt like a six-year old.

Remember this piece by the artist is still WIP so calling it a failure is kind of a low blow.
Where did I call the work in question a failure? I did not! You not only misunderstood my statement, you misrepresented what I said. What I said was "if what YOU were saying was true, then the artist--any artist that applied such logic--would fail in his designs." I was referring to your comment, not the artist or his work.

Please, do not put words in other people's mouths. That simply isn't right.

I said what I did based on my years of knowledge and experience. I stand by what I said.

My approach to critiques here comes from one who has experience in art and who would perhaps hire a matte artist and have the input as the "director" of a given project might offer. If that offends you, then I'm sorry that you have taken offense.

If my critiques have been so far off base as to not provide any thing of value or assistance, and if I am asked to leave by the administration or other contributing members, then I will happily remove myself from this forum.

minieffects
04-10-2006, 08:32 PM
We have all made good points/arguements so far in this thread, however I think we may have drifted off topic in regards to Zoki's work. One of the unfortunate casulties of posting in forums is that an otherwise benign statement can be misconstrued as negitive or hostile. I can say for myself that my comments were my opinion based on my 18 years of working in the visual effects industry and in no way were meant to insult ,offend or degrade the work, comments, etc..of individuals posting here.

Noel, I as well have never posted in this forum but I was not aware that it was a rule of this forum that you had to produce or post a painting to make any comments regarding one. This is a forum for professionals and begginers alike. You are entitled to your opinion just as much as anyone else. Having said that you should out of respect for others consider that the person your are talking with may be new to this or may have far more years of expierence than yourself. My point to all of this is you may have taken some comments of mine and Jays personally and that is not really necessarry.

We are all here because we are artists, and lovers of art and we should all show the due respect to new and seasoned alike.

So lets get back to talking about Zoki's beautifull work, and have fun!!!!

With respect,

Minieffects

zoki
04-11-2006, 12:15 AM
hi
this has become quite heavy
I can appreciate remarks from all posters
I am trying to study this as broad as possible I am aware of camera work and points in the picture plane that attract our vision.
I have finished MA in Fine art-painting , but it is also true that I never did matte painting for professional project, all what I post is my own study and work.
What I would like to see here more is talking what we can learn from painting and its over 2000 years history here in west
In my oppinion all these figurative /representative kind of traditional art has almost disappeared from modern gallerys
so I see work done here as a progresion of this kind of art, merging it with film adding animated elements in 3d... It is like creating 19th century lanscape with the most modern tools and possibilities....
HA ha I got little carried away but I hope someone out there thinks the same!
:oops:

minieffects
04-11-2006, 08:11 AM
I agree. I must admit that I did not study the masters of the past very much until I started going through forums such as this one. It has really inspired me to study, and appreciate the artist of the past as well as the present. I believe we are going through a rennissance of this type of work in the digital age. Whats really great is budding artists now with technology have the ability to observe, interact and learn from other artists globaly. Whats makes that exciting is the fusion of different styles and cultures within the work. This also brings together the community of artists and unites them in a way that has never been done before the internet.





minieffects

Jay_Gladwell
04-11-2006, 08:19 AM
Zoli and Mini, I agree whole heartedly with both of you. The "fusion" of all the art forms is what drew me to motion picture/video production in the first place. Working with other people in other art forms and mediums is truly exciting!

zoki
04-11-2006, 09:58 AM
yes guys you said it all
we can sit 10000 miles apart and still discus and help each other
thats the best!
btw i am working on this one and will be finishing it soon
z

minieffects
04-11-2006, 10:40 AM
Looking forward to seeing the finished painting.



minieffects

zoki
04-15-2006, 05:11 AM
hey guys
finnished version is posted here
http://www.mattepainting.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1749